Rossman:1 Abduriyim:0

[YourGemologist]

22 Sept 2009

The continuing mystery of the Tibet andesine mine!
How can one expert visit the Tibet mine, and another expert doubt that it exists?

In the recent GIA Research Special Issue Homepage there is an interesting push-pull between Dr. George Rossman of Caltech, and Ahmadjan Abduriyim of the Gemmological Association of All Japan. While Dr. Rossman’s analysis raises, “…doubts about the claim of natural red andesine mines in Tibet .” (The Red Feldspar Project, Rossman, 9/09), Ahmadjan Abduriyim states emphatically that he visited the Tibetan mine, (A Mine Trip to Tibet…..Abduriyim, 09/09) and even offers a video of the trip as further proof that his claims are true in spite of Dr. Rossman’s findings.

We have previously published the overview of Dr. Rossman’s work (Dr. Rossman Speaks, ISG 2009) on this topic that specifically reported that the material presented to him as Tibetan andesine tested not only the same as the claimed Mongolian material, but also tested as having been treated.

Now comes the GAAJ with this story of an actual visit to the Tibetan mine, in direct rebuttal to Dr. Rossman’s chemical analysis. But is this mine trip report all its cracked up to be? Could this “Mine Trip to Tibet ” be a fabrication or perhaps a view of a “salted” mine location? We have already shown that no mining organization in China has any record of a feldspar mine in Mongolia , in spite of claims that the Mongolian mine exists by Ahmadjan. In fact, based on the evidence we have so far, the only person we can find who claims to have ever seen this Mongolian mine….is Ahmadjan!

But it goes deeper than this. When we start talking about an actual trip to this mine in Tibet , including video, we get a much better idea as to the validity of the claim based on the information provided. We believe that the evidence on this trip does not stand up to the light of examination. Here are some reasons why…..

Claim: The gem-quality feldspar is derived from Quaternary-Tertiary volcano-sediments related to (late) Jurassic to (early) Cretaceous volcanic rocks.

Problem: This would make the Tibetan andesine sunstone approximately 140 million years old (University of California Museum of Paleontology). The Plush Oregon Sunstone is only 11 million years old and still in its volcanic host rock. At the oxidation rate we see with the copper in the Oregon material, the Tibetan material’s copper would be expected to show extreme oxidation. Instead we find all of the represented Tibet material to be the exact same red color. If you check out the video and report, all of this material is the same red color. Completely uniform in spite of being almost 14 times older than the Plush Oregon material, which shows a vast array of oxidation states throughout the mines we visited.

Below left: Alleged red andesine from Tibet (GAAJ video screen shot here and below in various places), below right a parcel of Plush Oregon Sunstone.



Claim: The Tibet andesine is found in sand and gravel, and has been produced since 2005.

Having visited and dug in several mines in Plush Oregon, we learned quickly that one issue is always connected to a mine…..tailings. There is far more material not taken during the mining process than there is taken. This leaves a lot of tailings, left over dirt and rocks that must be moved somewhere out of the way. Given that this Tibet mine is claimed to having been worked for more than 4 years, (more by some claims) then we would expect to see a lot of tailings around this mine. Virtually none can be found.

Below left is the alleged mine in Tibet after almost four years of mining, below right is the ISG at the Dust Devil mine in Plush Oregon after about four days of mining.


The mine is reported to produce the andesine from “sand and gravel or soil”. Where, we must ask, did the mud come from? In both the video and the still pictures supplied by Abduriyim the local miners are digging out with a lot of dust swirling around them. But in the close up photographs of the host material it is obvious that the red andesines are pressed into mud pies. We arrived in Oregon just after a record 30 days of rain, and the ground was already dry due to the dryness of the desert air. With the Tibet mine being at a higher elevation than the Oregon mine, how is it that the andesine is coming out in mud? There is no mention of any water source in the video or report, and nothing in the geological report regarding mud. So the question is…..who made the mud pies and stuck the andesine in them.

Below is from the video. A mud pie complete with fingerprints and the same dull red andesine stuck around it.

Below is from a previous report by the GAAJ on their Tibet mining expedition. Not much question about the mud pie full of dull red andesine, plus the now famous thumb print.

Claim: The red – green Tibet andesine is due to oxidation of the copper coloring element similar to the labradorite from Oregon .

Problem: When copper oxidizes is turns green. Copper in feldspar oxidizes from the outside in, not the inside out. The oxidized bi-color andesine claimed by Ahmadjan shows the same green interior and red exterior of the known diffusion treated andesine from Thailand that was reported by the ISG almost 2 years ago. How is this copper oxidizing from the center of the stone outward?

Below left is an image from the GAAJ report demonstrating what is supposed to be copper oxidation. Below right is a known diffusion treated andesine from Thailand.

Below left is an image of a Plush Oregon Sunstone showing the real oxidation process and colors. Below right is the reported Tibetan andesine rough provided to the ISG. We found the same glazed glass baked into the surface that Dr. Rossman discussed in his report. Note the white areas in the rough below right.

The Smoking Gun: The Acknowledgements! No mention of the fact that Jewelry Television financed this trip and JTV staff was there on the trip.

The big problem here is that this trip was financed and undertaken in 2008 just before the class action lawsuit against Jewelry Television was filed over their alleged undisclosed sale of diffusion treated andesine, a fact missing in the current GAAJ file. A report by the now defunct AGTA-GTC (AGTA GTC, #3#3, 18/11/2008) specifically addresses the AGTA-GTC concern over their own inspection of the material produced by the GAAJ for testing. It seems that the AGTA-GTC reported on a meeting of the Lab Manual Harmonization Committee in September of 2008 in which Ahmadjan produced these samples. The AGTA GTC wrote: “At the time, we were still doubtful if these gems had been placed into the soil beforehand, or if they were indeed in situ.”

The 2008 AGTA GTC report goes on to state: “Meanwhile, this question was answered by Ahmadjan, who had the chance to visit the mine in Tibet together with a colleague, and some people from JTV who sponsored the expedition.”

This is a very important and critical piece of information that is remarkably missing from the GAAJ in their current report of 11 Sept 2009! Where are these JTV people in the video? Why did Ahmadjan so carefully include all of those who helped with the expedition in the current report, but leave out the very people who paid for the expedition as he reported in the LMHC meeting in 2008?

And finally, to the last comments made by the AGTA GTC on this matter: “We have now confirmation that red andesine is found in situ in Tibet ”. AGTA GTC.

Which brings us back to Dr. Rossman’s recent report: “The analytical results resemble the treated Inner Mongolia feldspar so closely that they raise doubts about the claim of natural red andesine mines in Tibet .”

Based on the mud pies full of red andesine and those thumb prints,

Based on bucket loads of red andesine all with the same matching color,

Based on rough andesine with glass fused into its surfaces,

Based on glaring contradictions and omissions in the GAAJ report,

….and based on the fact that the GAAJ failed to disclose Jewelry Television as the financier of this expedition,

We agree with Dr. Rossman…….we have serious doubts about the validity of this Tibetan mine. And we will go a step further and say that we have found no credible evidence of any mine existing in Mongolia for that matter. We hope that the recommended expedition of properly trained and fully independent experts can be formed to resolve this mystery. Until a proper review of this mine can be undertaken, it must be assumed that it does not exist since this video and report by the GAAJ leaves too many contradictions and omissions open to conjecture and speculation.

If the GAAJ would care to respond to this report we welcome their response and feedback. In fact, we ask that they respond to provide everyone with answers on this mystery they have created.

Robert James FGA, GG
President, International School of Gemology

Note: As noted, the images from the report of the GAAJ are the property of the GAAJ who owns the copyrights. We have legally used these for our review of the claims made by this report by the publishing of these in the GAAJ report and the video on the internet. All other images are the property of the ISG. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. 2009 ISG.

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©2009 International School of Gemology . ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

Unless otherwise stated, all images are taken using the ISG Student Reference Collection of gemstones in the ISG office. We do urge and support sharing of this information in its entirety, with copyright notices intact, to others who are interested in the study of gemology. Jeweler’s Associations are welcome to distribute to your members.


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[Gringa Gems]

Unusual for a scientific research report, Dr. Rossman's paper does not give the providence of any of the samples tested.

Thus, it is not possible for him to declare by default that none of the samples were from Mexico. Did he actually test any samples that came directly from the mine owner in Mexico?

In the Emmett & Douthit paper, treated samples said to be from Mongolia are shown in Figure 2. Samples said to be from Mexico are shown in Figure 3. These samples are for all intents and purposes indistinguishable. At least in this paper, the samples are clearly sourced.

Next, we have the paper by McClure. He indicates that the color of "Mongolian" feldspar is never homogeneous, but is usually heavily zoned in combinations of red, green, yellow, and colorless.

Colorless zones as shown in the figures seem to be an attribute that was lacking from the initial red andesine that flooded the market. Someone please jump right in and correct me here, if I am in error, because I am still quite a newbie in this discussion.

However, my primary gripe with the McClure paper is that while no one is yet sure of the existence of the Mongolian source, the paper is written as if it were a given.

And then there is this notable quote concerning the so-called Tibetan mine: "Any reasonable person, seeing only the evidence from the mine, would conclude the site must be real."

This begs the question as to just how the author defines a "reasonable person."

[Morning Dove]

Originally Posted by Gringa Gems

This begs the question as to just how the author defines a "reasonable person."

They mean everyone who voted for ... oh, can't say that!

[YourGemologist]

Originally Posted by Gringa Gems

Unusual for a scientific research report, Dr. Rossman's paper does not give the providence of any of the samples tested.

Thus, it is not possible for him to declare by default that none of the samples were from Mexico. Did he actually test any samples that came directly from the mine owner in Mexico?

You are right on the money. Dr. Rossman never told where he got the specimens. But we know.......Direct Shopping Network and Andegem.

That is the reported source of his specimens. Tainted? You tell me.

And that Shane McClure report is just a sham. I have always thought he was better than this. He was only trying to defend the GIA for their lack of action and proper reporting. Forget the truth, just spin the poopy out of the thing.

Very frustrating until the truth comes out. Which it eventually will.

Robert

[Gringa Gems]

Looks like the GIA have taken down the link to their special research report on "red feldspar" on their "News from Research" page; at least, when I go there, there is no way to get there from here:

http://www.gia.edu/research-resource...rch/index.html

Oh well, doesn't matter -- I already downloaded and printed all of the "research papers" some days ago. I have some comments to make on the so-called introduction, but will let it wait till tomorrow.

[Gringa Gems]

This is a direct quote from the Introduction to the GIA's special report on red feldspar on the News from Research page (not available right now -- the link no longer works to the "special report," but if you want a copy, just get in touch with me at gringagems at gmail dot com).

"Given that it is a simple process to separate the various sources of transparent feldspar, a finding that the mine does not exist would mean that a determination of Cu diffusion in red feldspar may rest simply with a determination of Chinese origin. But if it is found that the mine does exist, the issue of the table will be..."

And then they put a bunch of stupid questions.

OK, how stupid do they really think their readers are? This is so insulting to the intelligence of everyone, I have to wonder who the heck thinks they can get away with writing such nonsense.

First, let's take these words: "Given that it is a simple process to separate the various sources of transparent feldspar,..."

Oh really?

They had not even managed to source them properly at the time the so-called "Introduction" was written!

Next we have this completely nonsensical phrase:

". . . a finding that the mine does not exist would mean that a determination of Cu diffusion in red feldspar may rest simply with a determination of Chinese origin."

What!?!

I guess when the Mexican feldspar was shipped to China, someone just threw it overboard.

But that is not even the worst of it.

The author COMPLETELY IGNORES the implication of the words "a finding that the mine does not exist."

Do I actually have to go into that?

[Gringa Gems]

Originally Posted by Gringa Gems

Unusual for a scientific research report, Dr. Rossman's paper does not give the providence of any of the samples tested.

I hate when I make spelling mistakes.

"providence" should be "provenance"

My bad! Sorry

[YourGemologist]

Here is the link.

http://www.gia.edu/research-resource...-homepage.html

I find particularly interesting that someone like Shane McClure would write so boldly as if he had been to the Mongolian mine, when in fact there is still no proof that this mine exists. In fact, we have some more surprises coming on this.

But the GIA has published paper after paper based on this GAAJ field trip that Jewelry Television paid to happen.

Boy.....is the GIA ever going to have egg on their face when this is over.

Shane McClure particularly.


Robert

[VP2006]

Holy Smokes! Where to begin?


At least their writing . . .

Mo' Later . . . fo' sure.

Til then . . .

Good observations Gringa.

Write On Robert.

VP

[VP2006]

Well I’m back, I decided those inane reports were nothing to waste time writing about but I’d like to share these thoughts for your consideration . . .

http://www.gaaj-zenhokyo.co.jp/resea...desine_en.html

I’ll put some money on . . .

. . . Tibetan Bivouacs for the yak herders.

Tell me these puppies wouldn’t “stuff” perfectly into one of those “salted” andesine holes . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mJih...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k12Kc...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYp8A...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvrbkt4v5YU

. . . imagine that you spend your life out there, herding yak, . . . what do you think you’d want when your out with the herd and a blinding Himalayan blizzard roars into life?

Fact is the loose soil of a glacial moraine comprised of soft sea sediments is an ideal place to dig a shelter. For a . . . Three Yak Night

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEe8l...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEYAJ...eature=related

What’s all these crazy questions they askin me? . . . Somebody Shut That Door!
VP

Now please turn up the volume . . . to LOUD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKaQzQAlNn4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXrzH...eature=related lol, hey Lady get out of that chair Woman!
Dedicated to the eminent Mr. A and Crew: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9KYv...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4sl7...eature=related